I inquired about the Pacific pact. Lyons said that he preferred a mutual assistance pact to a non-aggression pact, but since he was sure that neither England nor in particular the USA would accept such a proposal, he was ready to concede to a non-aggression pact as an initial step in the desired direction. But he conceives the non-aggression pact as one that stipulates the consultation of its participants in the event of aggression against a pact member by another power (irrespective of whether the latter is a pact member or not). Then Lyons told me about the outcome of his talks in London with representatives of various powers. To summarize: England’s attitude to the idea of the pact is generally positive and the Foreign Office has been told to work on the details. New Zealand certainly supports the pact and so does Canada, but without such enthusiasm. The Chinese ambassador in London assured Lyons that the project had China’s wholehearted sympathy. The Japanese ambassador, with whom Lyons also spoke, showered him with questions, but steered clear of expressing an opinion. In a conversation with Lyons two years ago, Roosevelt went along with the idea of a Pacific non-aggression pact, and now Bingham, the US ambassador in London, has confirmed this position. In conclusion, Lyons asked me where the USSR stood on this issue.

I replied that the Soviet government has a very positive view of the idea of a Pacific pact; that it prefers a mutual assistance pact but would be ready to join a non-aggression pact, too. In the opinion of the Soviet government, the only correct negotiation tactics are those that would make the Japanese understand from the very beginning that the pact will come about whether they join it or not. Only under this condition is there hope of forcing a degree of ‘cooperation’ from Japan.

Lyons was extremely glad to hear this and added that my words filled him with renewed energy. He agreed that our tactical line was correct and promised to continue his ‘propaganda’ in this vein among the interested powers, among which he includes the countries of the British Empire, France, Holland, the USSR, Japan, China, the USA and Portugal.

However, Lyons can hardly do much for the Pacific pact at the moment. On returning to Australia he will have to hold elections to the federal parliament. If he wins (and he is counting on the fact), the struggle for the Pacific pact will become his major foreign-policy objective. If the opposition wins, then, according to Lyons, the Pacific pact will be as good as dead, since the opposition is seriously infected with isolationism.

Then we talked at length about the USSR. Lyons asked me lots of questions and I gave him answers. His mental picture of our country is rather vague. He voiced his desire to visit the USSR personally one day, but not ‘now’, as ‘now’ he had no time.

The Australian premier is curious to look at: average height, sturdy, limping, strong-faced, and with a great big mop of lustrous grey hair that surrounds his head with a kind of radiance. Lyons’ political significance for Australia is about the same as Ramsay MacDonald’s for Great Britain.